Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

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Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby THEDeerman on Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:08 am

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Keep in mind these rings are designed for broadside and on the ground. We have plans for the future to release different angle rings and tree stand rings. If you haven't seen them go to the THE Official website[url="www.the3d.org"]
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby GregE on Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:36 pm

Seem to be missing :?
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby bear402 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:04 pm

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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby GregE on Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:35 pm

Thanks Steve.

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Good idea but the Vitals are Waaay too far back. We used to do something similar back before McKenzie started- drawing the "kill' based on the anatomy- including no score if you hit the leg bone. And it was shifted based on the quartering angle of the 3D target placement. I spent hours drawing them in. The hunters liked the idea but pulling the arrows sometimes moved the targets and the angle no longer worked correctly. The target oriented shooters wanted " consistancy" so they knew where to shoot no matter what. :roll:

When manufacturerd 3D animals caught on - that's what they used. I still shoot for the far shoulder on angled shots- phooey with the score rings. I'm a bowhunter.
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby THEDeerman on Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:24 pm

Do i understand you correctly you think that the rings are drawn right just are to far back. See, I am willing to do more research on your opinion. It just has been the experience of me and my staff that for a broad side shot conventional rings are to far forward and to high. See, if you hit a Deer just below the conventional rings in reallife up get the heart. Now, like I said I will research it deeper. But, I do not think conventional is where the average hunter chooses to aim.
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby GregE on Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:41 pm

'True Kill" should not be based on 'conventional beliefs' but where the anatomy actually is. Most people use the behind the leg crease as a center- doesn't mean its right. The oval shaped lungs go to the diaphragm which is next to the last attached ribs and angles forward to just behind the 'elbow'. the heart is completly forward of your 15 ring. Here's an Pronghorn (antelope) that was carefully disected to show the bones and thoracic cavity in their natural locations.

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Here's a good discussion on aiming at the V formed by the leg bone and scapula. Your liver is way too small BTW.

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 94&forum=5
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby THEDeerman on Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:27 am

Ok, so you think the 10 ring needs to be larger. I will give this much thought and consideration cause your pics do show the liver area much larger then my drawing shows. However, I think your pics and over lays do not take into account gravities pull on the inturnal organs of the live animal. Cause none of them show the dead zone gap above the lungs and just below the spin. And, If they are correct I do not understand when, I have had arrows and bullets of my own and of close friends enter and exit the body cavity exactly where I have the heart drawn. Then, after feild dressing the animal having a perfect hole in the center of the heart. I know that arrows and bullets don't curve in side the body. So, how did the whole get in the heart over and over again. When the arrows and bullets both entered and exited thru my 15 area. Cause that is at least 4 inches maybe more away from your pics and over lays show the heart to be. And, when we are at conventioanally scored 3D events and a shooter hits just below the score rings and behind the leg everyone in the group says I'd take that shot in the wild. I think this is because they have ahd the same experiences in the wild that I have.
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby GregE on Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:58 am

There is NO gap- good grief. Look at this sagital cross section. The lungs are higher than the spine- the white dot is the spinal cord and the aorta and ascending vena cava are just below the bottom of the vertebrae along with the esophogus. the shoulder blades are angled within the shoulder muscles and you can see the center ridge.


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If you are going to do this, please take the time to do it right.
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby THEDeerman on Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:13 am

From your pic here lets look a few things. From the top of the cavity to the top of the lungs there is at least a 3" gap. That if an arrow passes through the animal will not die, unless it is from infection later "dead Zone". I have had this personal experience, and seen the deer latter on trail cams, as well have other friends of mine. Now lets compare pics when talking about the hearts location. From your elk and antalope over lays the heart is at least 3" off the bottom of the body cavity, but in this upright cross section the heart is laying pressed against the bottom of the cavity. Wow, thats the same 3" difference as the lungs in each pic. Again, explain why when I have spine shot deer with a rifle, not meaning to of course. The deer dropped in it's tracks, and no damage was done to the lungs, NONE. Next time you feild dress a deer pull the lungs gently against the bottom of the chest cavity and feel behind them you will find they are attached by a strong but thin tissue about 3"-4" long that is attached to the bottom of the spine. You can give all the cross sections you wish, but I know there are many hunters out there that know where and what damage their arrows and bullets have done and they do not line up with conventional IBO/ASA scroe rings. Now, I may not have it perfect yet, and as I have said I will do more research, but not with cross sections. It will be on entry and exit holes on the outside of a animal and actual damage down to the vitals inside. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Just trust me I am not blowing you off, I will take this conversation into account and will intentionally research deeper, this next fall. From, my personal experience from the age of 12 to now at 35 I think these "TK" rings give a better true kill rep than conventional score rings. I do reallize they will take some refineing each year.
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Re: Ok lets get your opinions on the New "TK" True Kill THE scor

Postby GregE on Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:47 pm

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 94&forum=5


Have you looked at the discussion at the link?


Here's a few more:

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 55&forum=4

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 47&forum=4

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthrea ... t=the+void

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/t ... 10&forum=4

There are lots of reasons a hit animal isn't recovered- here's a good synopsis

OK. Enough. I normally am strictly a lurker, but I can't take anymore. I am a Pulmonologist (Lung Dr) and avid archer. As a disclaimer, I am not privy to what others have seen or witnessed. I am only trained in normal mammalian anatomy. As such, I offer the following:

1) The lungs are not "glued" to the chest wall. That said, they are mechanically linked by fluid forces between the chest wall pleural surface and the lung pleural surface. The example I use for my students is to take a zip lock bag, put in a very small amount of fluid to "wet" the surfaces and close the bad squeezing out all the air. Then try to separate one bag surface from the other. Can't be done without ripping the bag or putting air into the system. During normal respiration, the chest wall expands a small amount and the lung expand to remain constantly in contact no matter how fast or sharply you breath in. The diaphragm moves up and down a good deal as well, but again, the lungs are in continual contact with the diaphragm. The lungs never separate from chest wall - pleural space is a "potential space" until disease causes fluid to accumulate (effusion), bleeding (hemothorax), or chest wall puncture or lung rupture (pneumothorax). There is no anatomic pr physiologic void.

2) the lungs of all large mammals have recesses that reach above the horizontal lowermost reach of the spinal column. I will gladly attach computer tomographic images (CT scan) from man, pig, sheep to demonstrate that you can not design a path that goes under the spine that will not puncture at least one lung (assuming we are talking about the chest cavity). Someone needs to tell me how to do this with a Mac - or I can email them to someone to do it for us.

3) Not all pneumothoraces are lethal. Even bilateral lung puncture can be survived if there is not a large "sucking chest wound" and/or the lung slices quickly seal up with blood clot. Most of these animals will die, but a few can travel a long way even with "double lung" hits if only the tops of the lungs are sliced.

So, there is no void except in the beliefs of some; you can hit an animal below the spine and not recover it.
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